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My colleague Daniel Schmachtenberger, is both working on similar goals and has arrived at a similar worldview of how the pieces fit together. Max, you know, sort of on that razor's edge of a performance, and that meeting opportunities means that there's always a crisis, there's never enough abundance. I'd personally describe him as a holistic systems thinker focused on civilization risk and design. And so we've never figured out how to solve for that class. Daniel Schmachtenberger 25:35 We seem to be very willing to destroy the lives of capable people these days? And then they use that legislative power media power capital power to make systems that to modify the systems in ways that help them more, right. You have to you have to impute? And so we start getting more and more of a situation where I want you to have access to more things because as you're more creative than I get access to more things that are the result of your creativity. If the lion catches the gazelle, the gazelle dies. And an intercontinental ballistic missile takes that much further, which it's a similar type of choice to make, which is solve this problem through violence extended by a much, much bigger lever. And no, I'm not concerned that the birth rate will just collapse forever. My guest on this episode is my friend Daniel maakten. Ask what the minimal level of violence and coercion needed to accomplish it. So whenever we have perverse incentives, we're gonna have some situation by which we're being incentivized by a system of selective pressures to do certain things that may not be in the stated interests or the you know, whatever the directive is of our of our institution. Well, those ideas and those technologies make it through. But that much power without destroying us is a very interesting point. Eric Weinstein 3:12:13 And I thought, wow, first strike you teaching your child to strike first. But I want to start by saying I think this is important. Eric Weinstein 1:36:16 uplifting. So I at least accept the idea that we have to be here and I want you on that branch. And to not say things that would not be to the advantage of the advertisers that can afford to pay for them. 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I think we see that, Daniel Schmachtenberger 2:23:07 Nevertheless, the quest for a less rivalrous world is probably a noble one, and one of which I'm at least partially personally supportive. Obviously, it's like, Okay, so what is the incentive for someone to agree with us? Yeah, you get out of a multipolar trap that way. And I see that the world is getting better as a result of what you're offering, and I have access to more a better world as a result of it. largely right? But, you know, I always ask this this weird question, which is how many foreign nuclear devices are currently on US soil? I don't see a way of getting everything towards universal disclosure cooperation. Eric Weinstein 2:40:34 Eric Weinstein 2:27:37 I mean, you know, the odd thing that I have in being the friend and the employee of a billionaire, is that I sometimes get to borrow his life. One is the, the, what is the minimal level of violence and coercion needed to bring about some of these changes. It's not to say that's how humans mostly word that doesn't matter. So the way I'm seeing it, Danny, is the following. Like they don't do their own fundamental, Eric Weinstein 1:19:04 You say why aren't we more successful? Daniel Schmachtenberger 14:17 Eric Weinstein 3:27:23 And this is in part to go back to your original point, something that you and I share, a failure, a catastrophic failure of communal sense making. If I want to be violent, I can hit somebody stone tool allows me to extend my hitting capacity and hit much harder, right? but it is not a poetic, Daniel Schmachtenberger 1:04:38 So there's a fine, but if the fine is less expensive than processing the waste would be then it's just a cost of doing business. Yes, of course we do. and it also ends up introducing both a fundamental thing about the problem and the solution. The definition of which to the Crusaders was kind of a similar thing, right? And yet your point is maybe we can hack ourselves into a situation with a future where with exponential tech, as you call it, we don't have a future. So one branch would be that we have a self extinguishing human event, let's say an all out nuclear war where people miscalculate and the planet is unrecognizable. Yes. Right, and the people who are really engaged and how to make more powerful breakthroughs in science and tech, are usually engaged in some creative enterprise where they're not oriented to blow things up. You think that that our world and our society is thinking properly about where it is at this point in human history? Eric Weinstein 1:45:35 Eric Weinstein 1:32:50 Eric Weinstein 3:24:18 Yes. And so that's like, there's a real issue there. is the thing that terrifies me, which is that I would much rather have two very skilled hyper lethal powers. Yeah, Brett's point was, if that becomes self extinguishing, then you'll simply be replaced by something less ethical than you are. So my mind wanders to the second order question of why it would be so difficult to sketch a straightforward narrative to guide us. Eric Weinstein 2:28:19 The whole idea of what the Invisible Hand of the market that the market will figure out what stuff people really want to expressed as demand and then which version of the various supplies as best that. And if you read like, if you read Ellsberg Doomsday machine, it is kind of lucky that we haven't blown ourselves up because there were a lot of just mistakes that should have blown us up, right. We know it's obviously against. This group bets that there is a second evolutionary stable strategy for cohabiting not based on conflict or rivalry, even for life raised in Game A (i.e. So I'm quite happy with that description. But the genetics doesn't work at the level of the individual. [1] The modern neurohacking movement has been around since the 1980s. status. But if we look at biodiversity loss, or species extinction, or growing dead zones in the ocean, or any of these issues, not just climate change, we can see that we have we have a linear materials economy that takes resources from the earth unreasonably and produce There's a bunch of pollution, waste, heat, whatever, in the process of manufacturing transportation, and then turns them into trash on this side. And that maybe the idea is that people who can't live peaceably need to be incentivized to maybe have fabulous somatic lives but without reproducing I don't know so that we can drive certain traits towards zero. You well, so I was gonna bring up the case of Europe. standard evolutionary and economic environments based on scarcity and rivalrous goods). life. If you were now to swap out the blue check requirement and exchange it instead for I don't know the most sympathetic person you could imagine. That is somatic eradication through fanaticism tells you how powerful the software can be that you can teach people to die for a cause. capitalism and nationalism but feudalism was also an example. So what I've claimed is, is that the revolution that we're in is, is based around the idea that we don't have what I've called semi reliable communal sense making. Daniel Schmachtenberger 1:16:10 And if and when we find such a thing, it has to be redirected, co opted, destroyed, reputational Lee, or made ineffectual and the phrase that I really like appreciated that was used about Jean Siebert, who was, you know, one of Hollywood's great leading ladies of the time. And if we look across all of them, there are some things we can generalize about what leads to civilizational collapse, but I think the difference now versus any of those other times is that due to globalization, yeah, in some ways, the US and China are different civilizations, but both of them would fail without each other currently. He initiated the project to improve the health and development of individuals and society to foster a relationship between them. And the same is true of the tragedy of the commons if I figure out how to externalize some of my costs. And now not only do we need to kill the whales, we need to race at getting better to do it, and making better militaries and extracting all the resources. And then I hear this other voice, which is this optimism about maybe we could become wise maybe we could become the people wise enough to have synthetic biology and nuclear weapons, and instant communication and data warfare and all these things and survive and thrive and I don't see Out me out. And most of us haven't actually been through anything like a collapse in our life. Yeah. And we actually have to have a very mature relationship to it. And that's really significant when we think about the durability of violence in humans. Because ultimately, they found they wanted to go there association with me was let's talk about things that might move the needle in human history rather than Do you have any idea how much this bottle of wine cost? Right our capacity for tool and that's social tools like language and democracy and, but also physical tools. Daniel Schmachtenberger 2:30:21 So in other words, look at the universal class of such things, rather than begin then getting bewitched by any particular instance. Now, the coronavirus may or may not turn out to be related to laboratory strains, but the problem problems at poses and foreshadows are directly within or adjacent to Daniel's area of focus. Right and so what Is that we can't measure very often becomes a place to do business because almost everything produces negative externalities. So maybe the idea is that you're you have a concept of escape. But if we think about disinformation via the nitrous on Harris, his mutual colleague, he heads a movement called time well spent. Daniel Schmachtenberge is a founding member of the Consilience Project. Daniel is the co-founder of Neurohacker Collective and founder of Emergence Project, a futurist think tank. Eric Weinstein 2:51:26 So one is World War Two was the first time that we actually had existential level technology as a species in our recorded history. Maybe there are some big breakthroughs here. } will give me a spike and then a crash. function onPlayerReady(event) { Eric Weinstein 42:47 There doesn't seem to be a highly credible plan to defeat the virus to see the implications of this tree. So I think the interesting thing is that it is actually just like a healthier relationship to, or a more effective relationship to pleasure is anti addictive. And I, I do, quite honestly take some hope, in that. Daniel Schmachtenberger 1:25:55 and so for example, you're polluting as part of a furniture plant that employs lots of people and make something people need. I like it. Because you already have access to stuff. I think there is some signal and a good bit of noise. 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I think there's some positive things we have going for us, which is there generally tends to be an inverse correlation between people who are really good at Tech and people who want to blow things up. Eric Weinstein 1:57:09 Eric Weinstein 51:11 The specific class of people that we had at the helm of our institutions were constitutionally incapable of putting their foot down and asserting that we needed deeper reserves in order to handle what they called surge capacity. And to really be able to build something new took real capacities, what you would call the contact of the unforgiving, right, like real empirical capacities, and just. And because I'm not paying the cost, I get to have the profit margins that I have if I had to pay the cost, which means I had to employ a technology that currently exists to clean all that up, and whatever that costs, my business might be radically not profitable, right? And part maybe it's one of the reasons that people might find it rather disturbing. That they get, they get, they increase their per day as they increase their productive capacity, the environment increases its capacity to respond to the productive capacity symmetrically. And my, my goal was never a lot of broadcasts. So. yeah, if we think about two groups of people. And we don't have a good intuition for things that are only in history books. Ethics and academia and whatever to basically say, the, the behaviors that support the system are good. Okay, let me give you an argument. But you do have a situation where a single person like Putin or Trump or whatever, could do massive damage because of technology to the total biosphere. 'Humanity's Phase Shift', Daniel Schmachtenberger Watch on Governance solutions - Ethical downward selection is mentioned. Right. Yeah, like memes, along with genes. Can we make a situation in which we can raise children quite differently? Those who oppose the system of power also oppose those who are doing well at it. I was listening to you on a few podcasts and you were talking about E prime and talking about spinners and your kind of geometric unity and I was just fucking loving it and I was loving even the status of like you describing theoretical physics and mathematics well, which are topics that you know so much better than I do, but that I'm fascinated by and educating the public about it and there was no like, status competition impulse in me that was like overweight. 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